seattle indymedia center

holy shit! this is so exciting to see this kind of stuff in my hometown, which is being overrun by yuppies and corporate pieces of shit. not to mention the city government which has always been here and never cared about tacoma citizens.

way to go T(A)G! maybe we'll meet in the streets.

Because downtown Tacoma was soooo much better when it was all porno theaters and bombed out buildings. And what we really need is more strip malls and McMansions cut out of our forests and farms.

I moved downtown to reduce resources, support the arts community, and to create a stronger city center. It's working, too, providing assholes like you don't screw it up.

Thanks a lot, asshole.

Might be hard to believe, but some people actually (gasp!) love Tacoma; regardless of it's past. Having these condo owners in town hasnt done anything but drive up cost of living for regular working-class folks. Rents have gone up a lot, not to mention how many buildings have been turned from apartments to condos. Now there is a real class division between those who *used* to live downtown and have been priced out; and yuppies who dont care about anything but their parking spot and granite countertops.

If you moved downtown to do all those wonderful things, then good for you. Just dont be surprised if lifetime Tacomans dont appreciate their city being gentrified.

If you recently smashed the window of my house last month you got the wrong person.You see I live near an area that is being redeveloped.I couldn't afford to move.I've lived in my house for almost 16 years.I grow my own crops in my backyard.Someone cracked my window on Nov 30 2007 and broke it completely on Dec 21 2007.I am on a very fixed income and the replacement was a huge hardship for me.It ruined my Christmas and because of the holiday it couldn't be fixed until nearly a weeks time.Actually I think it might have been a employee of a developer who might have vandalized my house as to make me want to move which I cannot afford to do.
I consider all these redevelopments a huge mistake for Tacoma.I don't approve of any vandalism however I don't like all the new expensive apartments(the projects) and the condominiums either.All this redevelopment is ruining our city.

The self-important vandals of 'TAG' propose no conditions under which people can move into Tacoma without being subject to random attacks, which suggests the members of 'TAG' are less interested in the ideology they espouse than getting to 'do some crimes.'

Hooray for you, members of 'TAG'! You get to matter to yourselves!

Your condo trashing action action is regressive, uncalled for, and nothing more than a symptom of excessive adolescent testosterone. Reminds me of the assholes in Berkeley who used to provoke police violence in demonstrations filled with women and kids.
Affordable housing is a crying need in our communities.
Many young working class people are being forced into condos because that is what is available, they don't deserve to have you crap on their heads. If you want to try something radical in the housing problem, look into squatting, housing collectives, co-housing. Anarchy can and must be practical if it is to be anything more than a venting of adolescent spleen.

I would ask this: is TAG or any of these numerous anarchist groups actually interested in winning over the toiling masses to their cause? While I sympathize with these acts and take the re-gentrification of Tacoma as a whole very seriously, small scale vandalism for the most part does nothing but alienate working class people even further from the class struggle.

What is further interesting is how groups in the area have responded to the problem. On one side you have Jobs with Justice who has a large amount of resources and supporters at their disposal, but yet always seems to stop just short of pushing the envelope. It amazes me just how many times JWJ would rather tie their hands to together rather than win real gains.

On the other side you have TAG and other anarchist provocateurs who seem to think random acts of vandalism are going to drive out the condo developers and their bourgeois adovcates in the city government. What makes you guys think that working class people(if TAG is even actually interested in courting such a class) are going to relate or make the connection between paint bombs, broken windows, and their ever decreasing living standards due to the part of re-gentrification?

I have to again mention that I do greatly sympathize with the anger, frustration, and militant attitude that TAG expresses. But historically speaking, small groups of provocateurs participating in acts of vandalism and violence have done nothing but to alienate further the sympathy of the toiling masses, and also bring forth the forces of the reaction upon our heads even harder.

i must, at the very least commend what has been done. at least the things to the condos and the "development" in tacoma. can you all believe that they are attempting to rename the hill top?! they want it to be called Upper Tacoma! Trying to rename the area to get rid of its history and its culture. its art and its beauty. the things that are very lacking right now, and is not being helped by the downtown development. these developers only care about money. its not rocket science. i could give a rats ass if these people who use the name tag are anarchists or not. it does not take a shit tone of brains to know that this is hurting our community here and all over. the same shit as in oakland, the same shit in seattle, the same shit in tacoma. i hardly think this is some battle to win "us" over. i know this shit is bad, and would sleep better at night if people just torched the shit befor they even opend like they used to. these things fucking hurt our community and hurt those like us. disinfranchised folk, poor folk. i do commend their actions and hope that more take it uppon them selves to do their own things to put a stop to this. it don't matter if this is open community organizing or night time mischief, it all has a place and must happen if we are to take our communities back. thats just my opinion, and thats all it needs to be. i live here, i hate to see what is going on here.

Tacoman,

Even a blind man can see what kind of damage re-gentrification is doing to our communities all throughout the west coast area. All the feelings you are expressing are well understood, and I highly sympathize. Downtown is a awesome place to live, and the culture surrounding it is completely irreplaceable. However, random acts of vandalism are not going to stop, or even slightly hinder the process.

The big developers have big money and almost unquestionable loyalty from local and county government. Needless to say, A few broken windows and paint bombed walls are really no obstacle to them. Those things can easily be replaced. I would even go so far as to say a torched condo(despite how exciting that would be) wouldn't phase them. They can always find hand outs from local tax revenues to rebuild damaged property. If the 20th century has taught us anything it is that capitalism is very good at rebuilding and regenerating itself for the needs of the ruling class, weither that be on the micro cosmic(re-gentrification), or the macro cosmic(the marshall plan) level. In other words, the isolated act of property destruction is not going to yield the necessary result needed to stop the destruction of our communities.

However, the flip side of all of this is what will stop the big developers and politicians - and that is outreach and mass action.

When I speak of winning over the masses I am not talking about all of those who frequent indymedia, nor am I talking about the activist community at large. I am talking about the average working class person out there who isn't involved, or maybe even isn't totally aware of the issues at stake. These people are the majority, not us. This is a sad fact. It is absolutely crucial that we, as activists and community members, seek to expand ourselves as greatly as possible. Any hope for major change in the future is dependent upon this. The more we win the general sympathy of the working class populace(especially of those who are not even aware of the issue) and get them engaged the more successful we will be.

If there is anything a politician or a capitalist hates it is being put in the sights of a educated and determined populace. These big developers do not want to face the mass anger and frustration of the Tacoma working class. When and if they do, the issue of re-gentrification will be put on the agenda, and that is the last thing any of these guys want. As soon as that happens all of their skeletons come out of the closet, (in the case of the condos) all the way from environmental damage to workers' rights violations. But apart from that, they will have to deal with us directly, be it through our words or our actions. Hence the major difference between organized mass action based upon education and cohesion and the actions of a few midnight vandals.

Anyway, long story short: Agitate, educate, organize. It is always better to have 500+ mad as hell proletarians throwing rocks and paint bombs than it is a isolated group of one or two.

isolated acts of vandalism will not stop gentrification. however, a sustained campaign involving many acts of vandalism over a period of time can yield a desired result, so quit arm-chairing on the fucking internet, grab a trusted friend or two who are not terrified of risking their own safety and start helping out. If there are many T(A)G's who don't know each other, then one poorly planned night ending in arrest won't be enough to stop the whole thing.

Wonuvmany,

"isolated acts of vandalism will not stop gentrification."

Yes. Exactly.

"however, a sustained campaign involving many acts of vandalism over a period of time can yield a desired result,"

*Shakes Head* You guys just can't seem to shake this vandalism kick, can you?

I feel like I am repeating myself here, but let me repeat just in case you didn't understand me the first time: Big time developers and city governemnt are not afraid nor financially threatened by vandalism, no matter how often it is committed. They are, however, highly threatened by mass action and working class organization/cohesion. But I have already explained myself on that point.

You want a brief prediction of what your results will be? More law enforcement and private security companies patroling the condos and downtown in general.

Boy, that sounds great to me, lets further militarize and bring police repression down upon the whole area on the part of mindless wide spread vandalism!

Meanwhile, the working class population remains still not fully engaged in the struggle, and they quickly begin to associate the fight against re-gentrification with a bunch of teenagers smashing windows. In other words, the forces of gentrification are re-enforced while our communities continue to crumble.

But thats just my predication, I am sure countless other negative possiblites and results could and will ensue.

"so quit arm-chairing on the fucking internet, grab a trusted friend or two who are not terrified of risking their own safety and start helping out."

My supposed "arm-chairing" is completely baseless, and is really just a expression of theoretical/strategic insecurity on TAG's part. If you can't fully defend your tactics and strategy from criticism than your ideas are bankrupt, and should be discarded accordingly. Hence the importance of having the unity of theory and practice.

Furthermore, why doesn't TAG take the time to fully explain its ideas and tactics to the community at large? I would be very interested to hear them, apart from "If there are many T(A)G's who don't know each other, then one poorly planned night ending in arrest won't be enough to stop the whole thing.".

You guys really think vandalism will be the thing to bring this whole deal down? Great, just explain to us why, and be prepared to argue for it.

i am not adding to this list of comments for the sake of furthering this ridiculous false dichotomy that has been rearing its very VERY divisive and alienating head lately. but that is exactly what this nonsense about mass-organizing versus "midnight vandalism" is. i suppose the list can go on and on, back and forth. who can list more examples of successful mass-organizing, who can list more successful acts of self-organized autonomous direct action. I do agree with saint-just that five hundred+ angry proletarian throwing rocks, paint bombs, and maybe other things a bit more combustible, are far more frightening to the ruling class and all those who would rather us live as passive slaves; however, to completely discredit and put those responsible on trail for merely acting with their heart and taking aim(maybe not in the same way as saint-just would prefer) at a very real physical target is a bit to judgmental in my opinion.

as for baseless claims, who ever said these people all identify as anarchists, who ever said anything specifying these individuals ages, who ever clarified that these people are not themselves proletarians(what ever that means now adays), and most importantly who ever said that these people "really think vandalism will be the thing to bring this whole deal down"? so enough with the baseless claims. for the sake of honest and healthy discourse.

five-hundred plus angry proletarian do not appear out of no where. i am sure we all know this. this is not to say that vandalism will create such a mass, please don't misunderstand, but the outlet of frustration and anger directed at a real enemy, the rich, is not something to be discredited solely based on a persons age. it is action, action can lead to many things. small acts of resistance can turn into many self-organized autonomous acts of attack on a very large enemy, which i do hope will continue and grow in size. community organizing around this issue(and many others) would only bring the issue more public than it already is. remember, agitation and organization, right? vandalism and sabotage has been a weapon of the proletariat in the past, along with self-organizing, why should this not continue to be the case now?

as far as the police and private security go, if they militarize tacoma more and bring police repression down upon those of us who would rather see their power dead, they are the ones responsible. i refuse to identify with the oppressor. their actions are their own and they should be those blamed for them, not the oppressed that make a modest attack on their luxurious condos.

the sparks of revolt can spread like flames in a kerosene drench empty wooden building, with a helpful wind blowing through the holes where windows were planned to be placed. as long as we keep setting these opposing ideological and tactical camps we will never see the unity of theory and practice that is talked about and mystified all so often. Not every one is going to agree %100 on every little thing, this is one of our strengths. we can move as we will and adapt to our situation without a strict guideline (or party line) to tip toe through in order to reach our goals and desires. revolt can turn to rebellion. riot can turn into insurrection. it sometimes only takes one single spark to ignite revolution.

Who says these people aren't organizing mass action during the day? Who says our daily and nightly lives can't both be transformed?

On effectiveness. What yuppie wants to live in an area in which tires get slashed, windows get broken, and these things happen? It's true big bussiness doesn't care, they don't have to live there. But a yuppie will scare easily.

And please. Anybody who doesn't think attacks of SMALL groups of few individuals on a LARGER scale has ANY effect hasn't looked at the situations of Iraq and the Middle east at large. True, their war is military, and this isn't, I don't mean to discredit. But this war is economic, and accordingly, these are simply economic targets.

saint-just:
"Boy, that sounds great to me, lets further militarize and bring police repression down upon the whole area on the part of mindless wide spread vandalism!"
Let me just copy and paste a quote from an earlier comment, in case you didn't read it:
"a sustained campaign involving many acts of vandalism over a period of time can yield a desired result".

Which is exactly what working-class people know already: we can't just spout platitudes about "organizing the workers" and use those pretensions of having our pulse on the class struggle to create false dichotomies of "purposeful mass action VS. mindless vandalism".

And while I agree that clandestine action is hardly sufficient on its own to facilitate aboveground mass action, the assumption that the vandals are only smashing windows and doing nothing to build community power is purely speculative.

And this:
"Furthermore, why doesn't TAG take the time to fully explain its ideas and tactics to the community at large?"
NICE TRY, but somebody already (partially) responded to this with a simple socioeconomic postulate: if yuppies and assorted other rich scum are scared away from neighborhoods where their expensive cars and condos are not safe, developers will not make money and will be forced to abandon their projects, gentrification will begin to halt or even end. Which means no one from TAG has to answer to you, because direct action can and hopefully will be sufficient on this one.

What you people fail to comprehend is that all the new
condominiums and other developments will fail in 2008 because of a looming economic depression.Just today the DJIA has lost over 306.95 points.Later this year there will be massive layoffs and no one will be able to afford to live in the condominiums.Hence they will self destruct.

Alright, let me respond to these one by one:

"i am not adding to this list of comments for the sake of furthering this ridiculous false dichotomy that has been rearing its very VERY divisive and alienating head lately. but that is exactly what this nonsense about mass-organizing versus "midnight vandalism" is. i suppose the list can go on and on, back and forth. who can list more examples of successful mass-organizing, who can list more successful acts of self-organized autonomous direct action."

I am glad you brought up the idea of this dichotomy between different forms of tactics/strategy. Your are right, the dichotomy is false, and I support no such dichotomy. My position is far more interested in issues of growth and consciousness with regards to organization and tactics. It is my fault for not clarifying that earlier, I will do so now.

It is often times liberals who pose the question in such a way as violence vs. non-violence or reform vs. blood thirsty revolution. In the bigger scheme of things it is not really a question of either/or, but more of a question of what needs to be done now in preparation for the future. To me, the idea of social movements revolves around two things: 1. the level of political/militant/class consciousness in the community, and 2. the movements ability to engage and further expand its numbers.

With this in mind, TAG has done nothing to explain its position on creating a greater movement to stop re-gentrification, so I am only going to assume they are no interested in such matters. I take issue with that. I believe their devotion to vandalism, as a sole tactic, is very much a dead end in the fight against re-gentrification. It will not lead towards a measurable amount of success, no matter how many small amounts of people begin paint bombing condos.

Moreover, I think it is important to use mass organization as the base for all further action so that the development of militant class consciousness has a cohesive and radicalizing effect, instead of the isolation and alienation that comes from sporadic acts of violence.

It is interesting that you "midnight vandalism" in quotes. Is that really too much of a stretch? I don't think TAG's emphasis on vandalism is being over-blown here or misrepresented. I have only heard arguments(directed towards me at least) in support of it.

Also, could we please get a real working definition of what "self-organized autonomous direct action" means and what it would like in practice? I see a lot of good catch phrases going around, but not so much in the way of concrete explanation.

"however, to completely discredit and put those responsible on trail for merely acting with their heart and taking aim(maybe not in the same way as saint-just would prefer) at a very real physical target is a bit to judgmental in my opinion. "

It is not a matter of passion or heart that I take issue with. TAG wants to take revenge on re-gentrification. That is good. I have already mentioned how I highly sympathize with people's utmost anger, I definitely share it. However, I think TAG's efforts are in vain. By fallow these tactics, I believe TAG will never be in a position to seriously threaten re-gentrification or any other social issue.

"as for baseless claims, who ever said these people all identify as anarchists, who ever said anything specifying these individuals ages, who ever clarified that these people are not themselves proletarians(what ever that means now adays), and most importantly who ever said that these people "really think vandalism will be the thing to bring this whole deal down"? so enough with the baseless claims. for the sake of honest and healthy discourse. "

Yes, you are correct. That is why I would ask TAG to further explain themselves and their politics as a whole. Again, we get no such explanation. So far the only thing we have gotten is their devotion towards vandalism and their resistance of re-gentrification by "by any and all means". I would say that is worth basing something on, unlike my supposed "internet arm chairing" - which really has nothing to do with anything.

"five-hundred plus angry proletarian do not appear out of no where. i am sure we all know this. this is not to say that vandalism will create such a mass, please don't misunderstand, but the outlet of frustration and anger directed at a real enemy, the rich, is not something to be discredited solely based on a persons age."

I apologize if my comments come off as ageist, that was not my intention, but simple vandalism(for better or for worse) is often associated as something that kids do in search of a cheap thrill. However, I do not see how you can expect the average working person to view vandalism, in of itself, as something other than simple vandalism, or even something with a larger political outline.

"it is action, action can lead to many things. small acts of resistance can turn into many self-organized autonomous acts of attack on a very large enemy, which i do hope will continue and grow in size. community organizing around this issue(and many others) would only bring the issue more public than it already is."

This sounds a lot like the doctrine of propaganda of the deed, which would be why I would think that most people would assume TAG is a anarchist group (though I think the (A) in their name is a dead give away). I think history has disproven the real long term effectiveness of propaganda of the deed, even its proponents such as Alexander Berkman later recanted his support of such a tactic.

Again, with the self-organized autonomous acts. I think, with the aid of sitting bull, I can easily respond to this by saying:

With individual, autonomous, decentralized acts fingers we can easily be broken, but together we make a mighty fist.

"remember, agitation and organization, right? vandalism and sabotage has been a weapon of the proletariat in the past, along with self-organizing, why should this not continue to be the case now?"

Sure, I agree. I think there is always a time for sabotage and revolutionary violence, but the vandalism and sabotage you are speaking of was the result of militant mass action, not the result of a isolated handful. The Minneapolis Teamsters strike of 1934 is one of hundreds of exciting examples.

"Who says these people aren't organizing mass action during the day? Who says our daily and nightly lives can't both be transformed?"

I haven't heard anything to the contrary. Besides, who's lives are being transformed? Somehow I don't think it will be the working class population of Tacoma after the actions of TAG or any other group who fallows their line.

"And please. Anybody who doesn't think attacks of SMALL groups of few individuals on a LARGER scale has ANY effect hasn't looked at the situations of Iraq and the Middle east at large. True, their war is military, and this isn't, I don't mean to discredit. But this war is economic, and accordingly, these are simply economic targets."

Considering that the majority of insurgent groups in Iraq are sectarian theologians who spend as much time fighting U.S troops as they do each other and their own fellow Iraqi citizens I have to say that I am not really convinced by your arguments. I sincerely hope that the many insurgencies of Iraq do not fit the model of "autonomous direct action". With that, I think the numerous labor struggles in the middle east provide a better expression of a movement that could threaten capitalism and imperialism in favor of workers' power more effectively in the whole region.

Again, good luck inspiring the masses with a few dozen broken windows.

"Let me just copy and paste a quote from an earlier comment, in case you didn't read it:
"a sustained campaign involving many acts of vandalism over a period of time can yield a desired result". "

Yes, we have already gone over this. I have yet to hear why.

"Which is exactly what working-class people know already: we can't just spout platitudes about "organizing the workers" and use those pretensions of having our pulse on the class struggle to create false dichotomies of "purposeful mass action VS. mindless vandalism"."

Working class people know this already? Do they really? How do you know that? Because it sure seems to me like the average working person has only a mild sense of social struggle in general. If they already know the efficacey of vandalism why isn't there hundreds of workers joining with TAG and throwing rocks and boulders at condo windows?

The history of class struggle has been the history of purposeful mass action, or cohesive organization in general, and it has yielded the greatest results. This history is also accompanied by the need for outreach, education, and growth. People from Joe Hill to Martin Luther King have understood this. So if anything, working people understand more the need for mass struggle, above all else. In addition, acts of sabotage, vandalism, and revolutionary violence find their voice and legitimacy in the midst of mass movements, not the acts of a few or even a couple of provocateurs.

"And while I agree that clandestine action is hardly sufficient on its own to facilitate aboveground mass action, the assumption that the vandals are only smashing windows and doing nothing to build community power is purely speculative. "

Yes, and as I have mentioned before there is no evidence otherwise to tell anyone that TAG is interested in community power.

""Furthermore, why doesn't TAG take the time to fully explain its ideas and tactics to the community at large?"
NICE TRY, but somebody already (partially) responded to this with a simple socioeconomic postulate: if yuppies and assorted other rich scum are scared away from neighborhoods where their expensive cars and condos are not safe, developers will not make money and will be forced to abandon their projects, gentrification will begin to halt or even end.

finally, we get a real answer. But wait, it looks like I am going to have to go over this again:

What makes you think that before the yuppies and developers abandon downtown that they won't first enlist the further forces of police power to protect there investments? Furthermore, what makes you think(especially in the absence of a mass movement against re-gentrification) they will give up so easily? You and others underestimations of the power of capitalism in general is absolutely astounding. Re-gentrification downtown is a multi million dollar project. It stands to make outrageous amounts of profits for developers. Again, the powers of capitalism are not afraid of paint bombs and broken windows.

But wait, this is my favorite part:

"Which means no one from TAG has to answer to you, because direct action can and hopefully will be sufficient on this one."

NICE TRY, but your ideas are unfortunately still bankrupt. I guess the rest of us should just hope that vandalism and autonomous direct action will pay off, mostly because if not we won't be able to criticize or confront anyone for it. Certainly nobody has any right to confront Gulf or anyone else from TAG about their ideas. Of course, they are free to endlessly complain about those peacenik liberals and authoritarian socialists all they want, but to them? Self criticism is for the birds.

I think it would be foolish for the people who are doing vandalism to tell you what they are doing to mobilize people during the day. Something to do with the illegality.... Just a thought. But i mean...

YES YES. of course you're right. Let's mobilize proletarians to take the streets. In fact, you can lead them, so, how long will this take, and how many can you expect? Surely before the gentrification is comeplete, I am sure.

The point is mobilizing proles takes time. I don't expect this specific thing to be stopped by mass mobilization right now, it is un-realistic. Is it too hard to believe that some people don't sleep 14 hours or get fucked up everynight, and instead gleefully throw baloons and bricks at yuppie property? Which mirror would you like to see, the working class wrench, the wooden shoe, or the boxes of tea?

You're assumptions that said vandals don't organize by day is your assumption. My assumtion is that your a commie arm chair authoritarian- again a baseless claim, forgive me. Lets save eachother the misunderstanding and devisiveness and not make assumtions? Unless you enjoy smoldering at least a few of the burning ashes that are this movement. And hats off to you for organizing during the day, if you follow your own guidance, but diversity of tactics.

"I think it would be foolish for the people who are doing vandalism to tell you what they are doing to mobilize people during the day. Something to do with the illegality.... Just a thought. But i mean... "

Uh, sense when is mobilizing people during the day against the law? Especially if we(or they) are open and honest about our position towards re-gentrification. I don't really care about what kind of plans TAG has with regards to vandalism, I have already stated my oposition to such tactics(in of themselves) over and over again. But if they are planning on organizing the community at large, then what would be the point o hiding themselves? It is important that we are honest and bold about our ideas, there is no sense in hiding ourselves if we are interested in building community power.

"YES YES. of course you're right. Let's mobilize proletarians to take the streets. In fact, you can lead them, so, how long will this take, and how many can you expect? Surely before the gentrification is comeplete, I am sure. "

And petty vandalism as a pragmatic position is correct because of why? I suppose this is another way of you saying that you are impatient when it comes to mass action. Why didn't you just say that a long time ago?

Also, yes, movements take time to build, but pay off the most in the end. Did I really need to remind you of that?

"The point is mobilizing proles takes time."

Yes, this is well understood. I never said it didn't.

"I don't expect this specific thing to be stopped by mass mobilization right now, it is un-realistic"
Who ever said anything about right now? Movements don't just materialize out of thin air, they take hard work and vigor. They grow and gain momentum over time, some(depending on the political atmosphere and events) move faster than others. It is not like participating in isolated vandalism, which only takes about five minutes to make happen. Again, impatience is the theme here.

". Is it too hard to believe that some people don't sleep 14 hours or get fucked up everynight, and instead gleefully throw baloons and bricks at yuppie property? Which mirror would you like to see, the working class wrench, the wooden shoe, or the boxes of tea? "

I am not sure what this has to do with anything, but ok, i'll play along:

I don't really care what they are throwing as long as it is the result of mass organized struggle. It is on that basis that we truly threaten the social order of things.

"You're assumptions that said vandals don't organize by day is your assumption."

I am basing all of my arguments upon TAG's extremely vague article. I have stated this before, I don't know why you decided to ignore it. If said vandals are organizing by day that would be great, but I don't see any evidence of that. Furthermore, based upon the numerous arguments directed towards me in support of TAG I have noticed nothing but thinly-veiled contempt and impatience towards organizing by day in favor of community power.

Again, if TAG is building for mass action they should be up front and honest about it. Moreover, if they are bold enough to tell us they are paint bombing condos they shouldn't have any problem telling us about community organizing. Therefore, if one does not base his or her claims soley on what TAG and supporters have explicitly told us then there is no option but to make assumptions about the ideas of TAG and its supporters.

In other words, if people want to be unclear that is fine, but don't blame other for making assumptions. It isn't anyones job to cross their fingers and guess or assume what TAG's real politics are.

"My assumtion is that your a commie arm chair authoritarian- again a baseless claim, forgive me. Lets save eachother the misunderstanding and devisiveness and not make assumtions?"

See comment above, minus the arm chairs and authoritarianism.

"Unless you enjoy smoldering at least a few of the burning ashes that are this movement. And hats off to you for organizing during the day, if you follow your own guidance, but diversity of tactics."

Diversity of tactics is a different issue entirely. I am in favor of a plurality based upon solidairty and razor sharp cohesion. But whatever, lets hug *HUG*

nobody said above ground organizing is illegal. Of course, I understand how when someone who has been talking about committing clandestine acts of vandalism uses the word 'illegal', one can only assume that 'illegal' refers to the community organizing that they do during they day. i made that mistake the first time i read it too. then i pulled my fucking head out of the microwave and read it again. for someone to go online, to a site that is watched by pigs, and start listing off all the stuff they do during the other 99.9% of their lives when they're not masked up or sneaking under cover of midnight, would be fucking retarded. "hey i committed a bunch of crimes (and by crimes i mean vandalism, not community organizing), here's where you can find me during the day, running off copies of my fuckin wobbly pamphlets no one with a real job is ever going to read."

and by person with a real job i mean someone who does actual productive labor, someone who's job leaves them at the end of the day with just enough energy to flip on the television and try to forget how much they want to die, some one who if you approached them in public while they're trying to buy back their life at best buy or wal-mart and tried to talk to them about solidarity, class consciousness and revolution, they would call you a faggot terrorist; you know, the people you are going to organize sometime this week, month, whatever. If it didn't happen in 1920, it's probably not going to happen in 2020, feel free to continue shoving the same increasingly square peg into the same infinitely round hole, but let others experiment with new ideas if they wish, they may be dead ends, but at least they're not their great grandparents dead ends.
ps- i am not a member of, nor do i speak for T(A)G, but i am certainly a fan
keep up the good work

saint just, i hope you stop bickering online and start organizing and raising awareness, a multi angled attack is always best

"nobody said above ground organizing is illegal. Of course, I understand how when someone who has been talking about committing clandestine acts of vandalism uses the word 'illegal', one can only assume that 'illegal' refers to the community organizing that they do during they day. i made that mistake the first time i read it too. then i pulled my fucking head out of the microwave and read it again. for someone to go online, to a site that is watched by pigs, and start listing off all the stuff they do during the other 99.9% of their lives when they're not masked up or sneaking under cover of midnight, would be fucking retarded. "hey i committed a bunch of crimes (and by crimes i mean vandalism, not community organizing), here's where you can find me during the day, running off copies of my fuckin wobbly pamphlets no one with a real job is ever going to read."

Alright, so the question is: why did TAG feel so inclined to first tell Indy Media(and the pigs who read it) about their illegal activities? Wouldn't you think they would keep that underground in order to do certain types of work above? All in all, I honestly don't think so. From what I can gather TAG and its supporters don't much care about education or community power, they have their priorities else were (like paint bombing condos and telling us about it). All I read instead are excuses, accusations of me assuming things, and mention of mass action in passing.


"and by person with a real job i mean someone who does actual productive labor, someone who's job leaves them at the end of the day with just enough energy to flip on the television and try to forget how much they want to die, some one who if you approached them in public while they're trying to buy back their life at best buy or wal-mart and tried to talk to them about solidarity, class consciousness and revolution, they would call you a faggot terrorist; you know, the people you are going to organize sometime this week, month, whatever. If it didn't happen in 1920, it's probably not going to happen in 2020, feel free to continue shoving the same increasingly square peg into the same infinitely round hole, but let others experiment with new ideas if they wish, they may be dead ends, but at least they're not their great grandparents dead ends.
ps- i am not a member of, nor do i speak for T(A)G, but i am certainly a fan
keep up the good work"

Wow, as if this comment couldn't be ridden with more despair. Hey, be sure to get a hold of me when your pessimistic ideas begin to actually give way. If you are indeed right, we should both be in good company considering how apathetic and defeated working class is, right?

After all, a apathetic working class means no mass movement or paint bombers.

fortunately, however, you are wrong. The working class of the 20's, 30's, and beyond all had to deal with the crushing pressure of life under capitalism(exhaustion, demoralization, etc, etc). They also had to deal with extreme state repression on the part of police and national guard. But in the end, they took working people forward and they won significant gains. Long story short, it wasn't pessimism that inspired them to struggle, it was those old and tired "terrorist faggot" ideas about solidarity, class consciousness, and revolution.

But apart from that, I am glad you're being honest. If people think that appealing to working people is a waste of time they should just out right say it.

"saint just, i hope you stop bickering online and start organizing and raising awareness, a multi angled attack is always best"

Again with the assumptions! ;-) But in all honesty, this can easily appear as overall internet bickering. I think that is partly because there isn't much in the way of a real political culture amongst the radical left. In other words, there isn't much in the way of real robust and sincere debate/discourse. Hence my apparent "bickering". Hopefully this exchange will do something for everyone involved, even passers by.

*sigh* for anyone who engaged in the vandalism: grow up already. demonizing the "rich yuppie scum" who live in the condos you hate and envy so much is so infantile. those folks aren't really so different than you, after all. a few thousand dollars a year -- so what? what about the super rich who you can't get to because they don't live anywhere near the city center? making working or middle class folks pay out of pocket for broken windows, etc is just lame. that's all it is. it's not political at all. if you were really trying to do something effective -- as opposed to just lashing out an easy target -- you'd attack the companies building the condos (duh). you know, every one who shops at wal-mart isn't evil, and they certainly don't deserve any sort of attack. they're just doing what's easiest, and you can't help huma nature. what needs to happen is for people to be made aware of the consequences of shopping at wal-mart, and the wal-marts and condo developers need to be addressed head on whenever they try to get into your town.

i live in a condo in downtown seattle. it's not a brand new one, but it's not super old either. I could never afford a house in the city, and i want to live in a central location where i can bike to places, and shop locally, and be a good aware citizen. i'm a librarian for god's sake. i shouldn't have to apologize to anyone for living where i do; and i won't. but you should apologize for your lame petty vandalism. you wear your feeling of powerlessness on your sleeve with those kinds of acts. promoting effective change takes more thought, more effort, and more work than throwing a brick through a window. case in point: during WTO in seattle, the folks who blocked streets, etc were very effective, the idiot "anarchists" who smashed a couple of windows delegitimized the whole thing for many fence-sitters watching on tv. nice going "anarchists." apparently, you haven't learned. no wonder you're still poor, bitter, and ineffectual. leave the real efforts to change things to the grown ups, please.